Anyone????

What does born again mean? Mostly confustion. Google those words and you'll get the following.....
Definitions of "born again" on the Web:
having a personal faith in Jesus Christ; a phrase used by Jesus
www.request.org.uk/main/churches/glossary.htm
Being born again either as a resurrected human on earth or as a resurrected angel in heaven, or as an angel in heaven whilst your spirit remains alive in a human on earth.
www.lordswitnesses.us/terms
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..... then check out those two referenced sites, and not much more....
born again - having a personal faith in Jesus Christ; a phrase used by Jesus
Born Again: Being born again either as a resurrected human on earth or as a resurrected angel in heaven, or as an angel in heaven whilst your spirit remains alive in a human on earth.
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....so tried a databased bible for those words. If you put quotes around them, nothing. Removing the quotes gives the following. And even Jesus didn't really bother to define the term. So it evidently comes to one of two things. (a) the infinitly intelligent God wants to tell you how to live, but doesn't want to give you a simple definition, just to muddy up everything, or... (b) it's become a buzz-word for evangelicals, who could probably give one even more definitions that disagree with each other.

http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi
Jn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

1 Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Thanks factchecker.
Im going to study this out today, see what I can come up with. I never really understood why people tell each other ,I am a born again Christian, or," I was born again 4 years ago.
I truly think they havent a clue as to what their saying.

bella wrote:

I truly think they havent a clue as to what their saying.

I was holding myself back from saying that. No one has ever been able to give me a solid idea of what they mean by "born again".

Bella & TIScary: You can go to www.religioustolerance.org and use their Google based search and get almost 300 hits. But whether reading all of them is worth the effort is debateable. For instance the following quote came from: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_defn2.htm
and pretty well shows that ideas differ and everyone thinks their own idea is the ONLY TRUTH. So what else is new?

Quote:

It seems that countless people have their own specific definition of "Christian." They differ greatly from each other. But many Christians believe that their definition is the only true one, and is the only one defined in the Bible.

I suppose, what got me to thinking about this was Psalms 91, which is my favorite chapter in the Bible.
Verse one says, He that DWELLETH in the secret place of the MOST HIGH SHALL ABIDE, (shall abide being key words here,)under the shadow of the Almighty.
Then the last verse REALLY got me to thinking. It says,"With long life, I WILL satsify Him, and shew Him my SLAVATION."
Isnt that amazing? To me it was.
Christians, me included being one, always say that to have salvation, you have to be born again and accept Jesus into your heart, my praying a sinners prayer. No where in Scripture can I find where anyone said a sinners prayer, but I suppose it cant hurt.Now im changing my thinking on this. You can say you believe in Jesus, can say the sinners prayer, but what if it doesnt count? Lots of people have said that standard prayer, but with how they act, dont seem to me like it did much, if any good at all.
This might get kinda long, but read it anyway, and try to get what im gonna be saying here.

This is how it was explained to me, and I will pass this along to you on here.
If I dont answer your questions, do not think that I am advoiding it or you, but I wish to finish this as to not break my train of thought and get side bared here.
Then I will be opened for discussion it.
Theres no doubt in the fact that it was Paul that invented Christianity as we know it. Look at Mark 16, BELIEVE and you will be saved.Thats Pauls Gospel.Faith = salvation.Thats a shift from wordly salvation, to heavenly salvation. Instead of doing good things to make you prosper, it became BELIEVING will grant you a spepcial reward after your death, and the concept of the grave was transformed into hell.
What I'm asking here is when did Moses or the Prophets ever worry themselves with "getting into heaven"??
This is a Christian phenomenon.If theres a Heaven, like I believe, cant you trust the Father enough that He is fair?
Instead, Christians have worked out this "plan" of individual salvation.
The law says, if you follow IT, you will be blessed, and the "blessings" were never interpreted as Heavenly, or otherwordly. This too, is a Christian phenomenon.
Paul said forget the law, law doesnt grant you salvation, only death.You can see where Paul transformed the ideal of salvation from national and earthly, to individual and heavenly.It was easy for him to do it too because he had a whole host of willing greek pagens who already believed in such reward/punishment concepts.
Remeber now, Moses nor the Prophets EVER concerned themselves with that, so why should I??
The law was never about getting into Heaven, its about HOW to live succesfully, rightly, prosperously while in the flesh. This obsession is totally a Christian thing.
Moses never said if you hearken unto all these words you will be saved did he? Nope.Thats the Christian obsession with heaven/hell, reward/punishment. Simple amazing.
Paul continually saying salvation is not of works and the law is a curse is wrong. The law is a curse to those who break it because the law teaches us how to live HERE, and if you want to imagine a Heaven, then trust GOD that He is fair enough to get you there.
What im trying to say is this, its about h ow YOU define salvation.It does not mean Heaven, its really quite simple. The law is not about getting into Heaven and it never was.No one ever kept the law in the Old Testament thinking they'd get to heaven that way. This who idea of going to Heaven wasnt the great pre-occupation that it is today.
Remember what Jesus taught? Dont worry about tomorrow.Take His advise. The Father wont send you to burning tormentous hell just because you didnt believe in X,Y, and Z. What kind of God is that???
IM bringing all this up to point out to you that the ACT of BELIEVING to equal salvation as in being born again is way off base.The thing is, theres all kinds of believers out there who have never really read their Bibles. I hope so far, you know the differance between salvation and being born again.Like I said earlier, if you want to read about salvation, then try psalms 91. www.qbible.com/psa-c/91.html.

Now if you just read the 91 Psalms, you will notice that it isnt refering to Heaven. Thats why it interested me so much because on the surface, I imagined Christian salvation, but that not what the Psalmst is refering to. Hes refering to the salvation that comes with ABIDING in GODS WAY. Blessings of long life and prosperity, and he wasnt talking about the name it claim it crowd I used to be involved in.
You live to see your children's children+ the blessings that come with keeping the law which was never about salvation, or eternal security. I look at it this way. If you have to worry about "going to hell" because your not born again, then you have bigger things to worry about like living an eternity with a God who would send people to hell, or an eternal torment. Yea, I wanna share " forever" with a God who would send his children to a tormentous perpetual doom.
Think about how ridiculious that is. Now before you start throwing spiritual tomatoes at me, let me finish this out, I really have to say all of this to get to my point. I dont wanna half explain this born again subject.
Hell in the OT = death/the grave.
Hell in the NT = an abode
notice the differance?? Good.
Yea, so sing for joy!!!! Because the Father didnt torment you forever. No sin on earth warrents that kind of punishment, no sin, ALL the sins in the world doesnt warrent THAT punishment especially when we are born naked, KNOWING NOTHING at all but what we are taught.
And then when we "get called back", the Father is gonna torment us forever????? Heres a thought for you, maybe God just lets some people DIE and stay dead.If you want to believe, like revelation, that all are resurrected, some to eternal life, and others to eternal doom, then at lease you could see that eternal doom=death, why torment?Its not like God is not capable of killing our spirit. Scripture says fear not them which can destrory the body, but HIM which can destroy Both the body and soul in hell. If spirit = life, and cannot die, then he'll destroy our consciousness.
Do you imagine the devil will suffer too, or .."never shalt thou be anymore"?
If your name isnt in the Book of Life then where are you??You dont exist, you're dead. The memory of you will be removed from the living, you dont go to some place to "suffer". What kinda twisted God would do that??
The Book of Enoch helped shape the Christian concept of hell also.
When Uriel the angel guided Enoch to the unfinished realm, where the angels that sinned were kept bound in chains, then you have Peters referance to it.
Do you see what Im saying here?
IF theres a Heaven, you CAN trust the FATHER, you sure dont have to run around telling people that unless they do X,Y and Z they're gonna burn.
Now.
If you REALLY want to see something exciting, that will make your head spin, hold on .
Im gonna take you through John 3 without Billy Graham breathing down your neck.
Ready? Lets gooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
I just sat here typing for over an hour only to have my post disappear when i went to submit it?
now i have to do it all over GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
My fingers are aching from typing so much too. will hit it again tonight.

Quote:

then trust GOD that He is fair enough to get you there.

Hmmmm. In 2Samuel, God tells David to number Israel, which he does. But for some reason God gets hacked over that. The "fair" solution?

24:15 So the LORD sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning even to the time appointed: and there died of the people from Dan even to Beersheba seventy thousand men.

If that's fair, I'm the proverbial Monkeys Uncle!

How many millions of people actually call themselves "borg again"?
"I am born again."
"I was born again 5 years ago".
"Are YOU born again"???
They dont even understand the Chapter of John 3, and I rarely hear any preachers teach it correctly either.
www.qbible.com/jhn-c/3.html
3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.
3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi,we know that thou art a teacher come from God for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Whats the subject? I I underlined it for you.
The Jesus responds.........
3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.
People read right over it, notice the responce, its not arbitrary.
Nicodemus: you come from god.
Jesus : you must too.
The greek word here translated "again", is translated "from above" in verse 3:31.
3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is od the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth, he that cometh from heaven is above all.
Same greek word "anothern" translated "again" in verse 3. Anothern menns both, again and from the first, from above, from the top carries a dual meaning in the greek.
3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mothers womb, and be born?
How can I be born from above/again as an old mann Nicodemus asks.
3: 5 Jesus answered , Verily, verily I say unto theee, Except a man be born of water and of the spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
3:6 THat which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the SPirit is sprit.[i]
GUess what? this isn't refering to baptism. Being born of water/flesh = coming out of your mothers womb.
JEsus responded you must be born of flesh and spirit of water ( your mother) again he says.
3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Nicodemus doesnt understand.
Jesus is going to explain it to him now.

3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth; so is every one that is born od the Spirit.
We all know that we come from our mothers womb, those born of the flesh/water, but those born of the spirit cannot tell where they came from or where they go.
3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Atr thou a master id Israel, and knowest not these things???
This is the basics, Jesus is saying.
3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do not know, and testify that we have seen , and receive not our witness.
3:12 If I have told you earthly things and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things.
Earthly things, things we can see.So whats JEsus saying here? I havent told you of heavenly things, I am telling you of earthly things, things we see with our eyes, in other words, Nicodemus doesnt even understand birth from water/flesh.
3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
If you want to see heaven, if you want to get to heaven you must have been born from above, from God is what JEsus is saying. You may recongnize that you came from your mothers womb, but where did your spirit come from?? This you cannot see with your eyes.

The entire chapter of John 3 is about orgins, but what Im trying to show you here is that this isnt about a transformational experience mid-life, or a ritual baptism, Jesus is refering to origins.
Of the flesh we come from out Mother.
Of the spirit, we come from our Father.
"born from above" is a more accurate translation, look it up yourself in the lexicon. www.qbible.com/jhn/3.html#3
Now look at verse 31 again,"cometh from above' SAME word. Whats the subject?
Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God.
(verse 2)
I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God
(verse 3)
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven
(verse 13)
Comming down from heaven= orn from above (i.e.again)
If revelatios teaches us there are 2 deaths, then John teaches us there are 2 births.
Birth of Spirit-> Birth of Flesh->Death of Flesh-> Death of Spirit.
This is the cycle of life.
If you dont understand birth of the flesh, you wont unerstand birth from the spirit.
You can tell you came from your mother, but what you cant see as the winds/spirit blows, that you came from your Father.
This is the teaching here.
In the 4th Gospel, theres a very strong emphisis on origin.
"Ye are not of this world"
"I am not of this world"
"I am from above" "you are from beneath"
"where I am going you cannot come"
"you are come from God"
"I proceed forth from the Father"
"No man has ascended but he who first desended"
"you must be born from above"
HOw would anyone know if they were born from above??
By first understanding you came from your mother if God created you.

If????
Well yes.
We all see we come from our mother. How do you know is by observing the natural/ earthly world.
By FAITH we know GOd created us, by sight we came from our mothers. In order to understand our origin, we can take a hint by observing the natural world. Theres more to it than a chemical process, and if so, then when?
When we are born of spirit.
Its not an enlightenment, or a belief, its not an experience nor is it an acceptance, a confession or a sinners prayer.
It is who we are as children of GOD.
Ask yourself, were you a child of God the moment you were conceived, or.... were you estrangled from God until you said some kind of majical sinners prayer of acceptance as a sinner, blah, blah, blah and then became adobted or whatever?
When it is ,that we can say FATHER and mean it??
In other words, being born of the spirit is something that happens either before or at earthly conception and unless you can understand the physically earthly, you cannot understand the heavenly.
Those who say," I was born again 5 years ago" are they that dont realize that they are saying that they came out of theirs mothers womb, a child of nature, estranged from God.
God "became" my Father 5 years ago is unwitting saying that they were "adobted" and thats just wrong. Notice verse 2 the subject.
Thats silly saying a sinners prayer and praying Jesus into your heart.
Oh well, believe and you will be saved!!!!!!

This ideal of God "sending" his Son....what do you think he does with us????
www.qbible.com/ecc-b/12.html#7
Job 38 "where were you....when i layed the foundation"
Jeremiah " before I was born, you knew me"
People like to say that God knows everything, I think this is not reasonable.
God KNOWS what you will do? You cant surprise him? He already knows if hes going to send you to hell?? Now seriously, think about that.
If God already knows, and those who"get to heaven" will never remember this place, then what purpose is there to live out this existence if God already knows?
If God already knows which ones " make it" and has promised that the memories of the others will be taken away, our tears ect; then why go thru this?
He could have weeded out the wicked before satan even rebelled and spared much suffering.
The only thing that makes sence to me is that Gods greatest gift..freewill gives us the capacity to surprise, disappoint, and please God. He doesnt know what we will do, we are autonomous.
Thats the joy of creating us in the first place. So if he chooses a man to be a prophet before hes even born, and it says "before you were born I knew you", then its NOT refering to the mystical knowledge of the future. Foreknowledge is knowing a person before they were born, Not knowing the future before it happens.
When God created the earth , it says," he created ALL the host of it".
Thats you and me.
Who is to say that life begins at conception? Earthly life does yes, but who is to say where we came from beyond our mother?
John 8 says Abraham rejoyced to see my day".
Genesis 1:26 says," Let us make man" let us make man in our image.
Christians say thats Jesus and God, I dont think so. God is speaking to ALL the heavenly host, i. e his sons, the sons of God.
Let us make man in our image.....
The Psalms say, " man is made a little lower that the angels" another says " ye are elohim" and all of you, children of the most high, but you will die like men.
The N.T. says it is appointed for all men to die once. The act of making man is the act of allowing his sons to die, to experience good and evil and make choices WITHOUT an eternal consequence because we are flesh. Our bodies are "designed" to fail, to corrupt, to only last so long. Life in the flesh is not ideal, its a consequence that is the point of the fall.
If we are going to believe in a heaven, and an ideal existence with Gos, then we must realize that all of this, all that our eyes can see is a lower form of existance and that we are in a fallen state.
We're not simply born estranged from God with hope of salvation, but fallem from God to whom we return like it says in Ecclesiastes.
Will finish this later tonight.......