Hi all
My religion is Islam but I don’t want to be Muslim only because my parents are Muslims. I need to discuss with no Muslim persons about Islam and other religions. I have some question from you as a no Muslim person: what is your opinion about Islam? What are the mistakes in Islam in your opinion?
Thanks

Ali: First, welcome to the forum.

Next, I don't know whether you even want the inputs from agnostic/athiest non-believers, and if not, just say so.

The one thing I can promise you is that I won't respond to your questions from a "different religion" bias since to me all religions are still as mythical as Zeus and Ra and so on.

I have a couple of questions concerning countries embracing Islam, but they can wait until I see your response to this.

Cheers

'Nuff said.

_________________
"My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved for him."- Song of Solomon 5:4

factchecker wrote:

Ali: First, welcome to the forum. Next, I don't know whether you even want the inputs from agnostic/athiest non-believers, and if not, just say so. The one thing I can promise you is that I won't respond to your questions from a "different religion" bias since to me all religions are still as mythical as Zeus and Ra and so on. I have a couple of questions concerning countries embracing Islam, but they can wait until I see your response to this. Cheers

Yes I'll be glad to discuss with non-believers as well as believers.

There is a fact about me that I should say to you: As you can recognize, English is not my first language, so maybe I cant explain my idea correctly with English sentences and also maybe I cant understand some of your sentences and I ask you whether I understand your target or not.

QUOTE ALI: Yes I'll be glad to discuss with non-believers as well as believers. There is a fact about me that I should say to you. As you can recognize, English is not my first language, so maybe I cant explain my idea correctly with English sentences and also maybe I cant understand some of your sentences and I ask you whether I understand your target or not.UNQUOTE

Ali.
From what you've written so far, I see no problems at all. While stationed overseas off and on, I had several friends/co-workers who were Japanese and Korean, and they really educated me on what a difficult language English is to learn as a second language. It gave me great respect for those who have made that step.

So, ask your questions and we'll see where this goes.

ali, first I want to let you know... every christian will have a counter to every comment you have for islam. I will tell you to decide with an unbias heart, and I will also tell you that I don't feel any religion will save you. It is how you follow a religion or in other words how you choose to live your life, that I feel God or Allah is more interested in.

_________________
Quran[2:62]Surely, those who believe, who are Jewish, Christian, and the converts; anyone who believes in GOD, and in the Last Day, and leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

_________________
"My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved for him."- Song of Solomon 5:4

factchecker wrote:

From what you've written so far, I see no problems at all. While stationed overseas off and on, I had several friends/co-workers who were Japanese and Korean, and they really educated me on what a difficult language English is to learn as a second language. It gave me great respect for those who have made that step. So, ask your questions and we'll see where this goes.

Hi
Please consider this example:
Suppose there are two lotteries, lottery "A" and lottery "B".
In lottery "A" you pay 80 dollars and you'll win 180 billion dollars! Or you'll lose your 80 dollars.
In lottery "B" you pay 180 billion dollars and you'll win 80 dollars! Or you'll lose your 180 billion dollars.
Which lotteries do you prefer "A" or "B"?

Maybe life hereafter is true or false (nobody can't prove that certainly it is false)

If life hereafter be false believers have lost 80 years of their life in world or less, but if life hereafter be true they will be in heaven for billion years so they have chosen lottery "A".

What about none-believers if life hereafter be false they have had a comfort life in world for 80 years or less, but if life hereafter be true they will be in hell for billion years so non-believers chose lottery "B".

And there is another point, believers and none-believers both enjoy their life in world and both pain. Even believers have a more comfort life in world.

QUOTE ALI: Hi
Please consider this example:
Suppose there are two lotteries, lottery "A" and lottery "B".
In lottery "A" you pay 80 dollars and you'll win 180 billion dollars! Or you'll lose your 80 dollars.
In lottery "B" you pay 180 billion dollars and you'll win 80 dollars! Or you'll lose your 180 billion dollars.
Which lotteries do you prefer "A" or "B"?

Maybe life hereafter is true or false (nobody can't prove that certainly it is false)

If life hereafter be false believers have lost 80 years of their life in world or less, but if life hereafter be true they will be in heaven for billion years so they have chosen lottery "A".

What about none-believers if life hereafter be false they have had a comfort life in world for 80 years or less, but if life hereafter be true they will be in hell for billion years so non-believers chose lottery "B".

And there is another point, believers and none-believers both enjoy their life in world and both pain. Even believers have a more comfort life in world. UNQUOTE

Ali. You've proposed a different expression of Pascal's Wager: But he had some false assumptions, as follows:

1. He assumed his "wager" only concerned the God that he believed in. But throughout history there have been dozens and dozens (perhaps hundreds) of different gods. What happens if you believe in Allah but it turns out that Jesus is the answer. Then you go to hell! Or, vice versa, what if a Christian follows Pascal's ideas but it turns out Jesus was only a prophet (or perhaps never existed) and Allah is the one and only true God. Then all the Christians go to hell.

2. Pascal also did not make any allowance for his (or anyone's) God possessing any logic or concern for honesty. If I say "I believe" just because I'm betting against going to hell, that's a far distance from truly believing in and worshiping God. Don't you think an all-knowing God would look at me and find that I was simply pretending in order to cover my butt... compared to a true believer, hardly a good reason to let anyone into heaven. By the same token, wouldn't a merciful and loving and all-knowing God take a look at a true believer of a different religion and feel that this individual made a true effort to believe, but just happened to pick the wrong god, probably because of how his parents raised him... so God would give him a pass into heaven.

And a question. You say that believers have a more comfortable life in the world. That's quite a statement. Do you have any verifiable proof of that beyond your own opinion and hearsay from others?

Also, your statement, "Maybe life hereafter is true or false (nobody can't prove that certainly it is false)" needs to be countered with the statement that -- nobody can prove that it is true either!

factchecker wrote:

Ali. You've proposed a different expression of Pascal's Wager: But he had some false assumptions, as follows: 1. He assumed his "wager" only concerned the God that he believed in. But throughout history there have been dozens and dozens (perhaps hundreds) of different gods. What happens if you believe in Allah but it turns out that Jesus is the answer. Then you go to hell! Or, vice versa, what if a Christian follows Pascal's ideas but it turns out Jesus was only a prophet (or perhaps never existed) and Allah is the one and only true God. Then all the Christians go to hell. 2. Pascal also did not make any allowance for his (or anyone's) God possessing any logic or concern for honesty. If I say "I believe" just because I'm betting against going to hell, that's a far distance from truly believing in and worshiping God. Don't you think an all-knowing God would look at me and find that I was simply pretending in order to cover my butt... compared to a true believer, hardly a good reason to let anyone into heaven. By the same token, wouldn't a merciful and loving and all-knowing God take a look at a true believer of a different religion and feel that this individual made a true effort to believe, but just happened to pick the wrong god, probably because of how his parents raised him... so God would give him a pass into heaven. And a question. You say that believers have a more comfortable life in the world. That's quite a statement. Do you have any verifiable proof of that beyond your own opinion and hearsay from others? Also, your statement, "Maybe life hereafter is true or false (nobody can't prove that certainly it is false)" needs to be countered with the statement that -- nobody can prove that it is true either!

1-I have not heard about Pascal's wager yet. If it is possible for you recommend me a website that I can read about Pascal's wager.
2-You said "there have been dozens and dozens (perhaps hundreds) of different gods" so let change my example like below:

Suppose there are 100 religions in the world:
Religion0, Religon1, Religon2… Religion100


How much is the probability of each religion (to be true)?
Do all of them have the same probabilities?
No they don’t have same probabilities. They have different probabilities
And we can study each religion to find which of them has the most probability.

QUOTE ALI
1-I have not heard about Pascal's wager yet. If it is possible for you recommend me a website that I can read about Pascal's wager.
2-You said "there have been dozens and dozens (perhaps hundreds) of different gods" so let change my example like below:

Suppose there are 100 religions in the world:
Religion0, Religon1, Religon2… Religion100


How much is the probability of each religion (to be true)?
Do all of them have the same probabilities?
No they don’t have same probabilities. They have different probabilities
And we can study each religion to find which of them has the most probability.
UNQUOTE

Ali: First, a couple of websites concerning Pascal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager
http://www.religioustolerance.org/pascal_w.htm
http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/

Next, re your suggestion to study all the different religions... a good idea. But to do a comparison of anything, one first must decide on some criteria on which to base the judgements, so the comparison is fair. So we need to decide on what things we want to judge each religion against. I'll suggest a few, and you can add to them.

1. A yes or no question: Does each God have the ability to perform a miraculous cure. This would have to be substantiated by verifiable proof. The easiest proof would be the miraculous restoration of a missing limb on an amputee.

2. Was the book establishing each religion (Quran, Book of Mormon, Bible, etc) actually inspired by each appropriate God? In other words, is everything written in it an actual truth that an all-knowing God possessing all the knowledge of the universe would know... or are there passages that are obviously based on a lack of knowledge by the mere men who actually wrote it. For instance, Mormonism implies that American Indians are descendants of Israelites, something that DNA has proven to be wrong. And the Christian bible, in Genesis, says that if goats copulate while looking at streaked rods. The result is streaked, speckled, and spotted baby goats. That's obviously not true.

3. Almost 300 years before Jesus was supposedly born, a Greek philosopher named Epicurus posed the following:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

So we have to ask about each of the Gods, do they stop evil things from happening to totally innocent young children and unborn babies? The answer in all cases is NO. We have things like China's earthquake, Myanmar's cyclone, and all across the world, birth defects.

Ali: I almost forgot. I originally posed a question,

And a question. You say that believers have a more comfortable life in the world. That's quite a statement. Do you have any verifiable proof of that beyond your own opinion and hearsay from others?

Do you have any information about that for me?

Factchecker: You said "and a question. You say that believers have a more comfortable life in the world. That's quite a statement. Do you have any verifiable proof of that beyond your own opinion and hearsay from others?"

It's very difficult to prove that the believer's life is better that none-believer's life in general (and also it is very difficult to prove that none-believer's life is better than believer's life in general) but we can study some statistical information about it.

For example how many of believers do suicide (I mean when a person kills himself/herself) (in percent)?
And how many of none-believers do suicide (in percent)?
How many of believers use anti-depression pills (in percent)?
How many of none-believers use anti-depression pills (in percent)?
And so on …


Because English is not my first language I don’t know any reliable websites that offer such statistical information. Do you know any? If your answer is yes please give me their address to study.

But there is a fact I know: Muslims have a special month called Ramadan and Muslims are fasted in this month and they are more religious in this month. And statistical information proves that in this month crime is lese than other months.

And there is another point: many people claim that they are religious but they are not. For example they claim that they are Christian but they hardly ever go to the church. Or some people claim that they are Muslims but they hardly ever pray. So we should consider these facts in our statistical studies.



And also you said: "Mormonism implies that American Indians are descendants of Israelites, something that DNA has proven to be wrong. And the Christian bible, in Genesis, says that if goats copulate while looking at streaked rods. The result is streaked, speckled, and spotted baby goats. That's obviously not true."

Have you ever asked these questions from a Mormon or a Christian? And if you have asked them what was their responses. But if you have not asked them, we can make a new topic in this forum or other forums and ask these questions.

Also you said: "is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent …."I need more time to think about it.

Also you said: Does each God have the ability to perform a miraculous cure. This would have to be substantiated by verifiable proof. The easiest proof would be the miraculous restoration of a missing limb on an amputee.
I don’t understand your mean.

It's very difficult to prove that the believer's life is better that none-believer's life in general (and also it is very difficult to prove that none-believer's life is better than believer's life in general) but we can study some statistical information about it.

You are right, it is difficult to prove the believer's life is better. But the fact that it is also difficult to prove that a non-believer's life is better, is not something to even discuss. Your statement that the believer's life was better is your "claim." When someone makes an outstanding claim, it is their responsibility to provide outstanding proof that it is true. It is NOT the responsibility of the person asking for proof to provide proof against the claim. For example, if my neighbor tells me he saw a bird fly past his house, that's not hard to believe because it happens all the time. But if he claims that a purple pig with gold wings flew past... I'm going to ask for proof, and it is not my responsibility to prove him wrong. It is HIS responsibility that such an animal exists and can fly because he made the claim.

For example how many of believers do suicide (I mean when a person kills himself/herself) (in percent)?
And how many of none-believers do suicide (in percent)?
How many of believers use anti-depression pills (in percent)?
How many of none-believers use anti-depression pills (in percent)?
And so on …

Because English is not my first language I don’t know any reliable websites that offer such statistical information. Do you know any? If your answer is yes please give me their address to study.

First, let's look at the need for reliable websites. Are you familiar with the search site, www.google.com ? If not, then go to www.googleguide.com to learn how to use it. I think you'll find it very helpful.

Next, your comments of believers vs non-believers and suicide and anti-depression pills. You can go to http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=pzuckerman_26_5
and you'll find that believers do indeed have lower suicide rates, though whether that is because they are afraid of going to hell because of suicide, where a non-believer is not.... is not addressed. But if you read the entire article you will also find that, "In sum, countries with high rates of organic atheism are among the most societally healthy on earth, while societies with nonexistent rates of organic atheism are among the most destitute. The former nations have among the lowest homicide rates, infant mortality rates, poverty rates, and illiteracy rates and among the highest levels of wealth, life expectancy, educational attainment, and gender equality in the world. The sole indicator of societal health in which religious countries scored higher than irreligious countries is suicide."

But there is a fact I know: Muslims have a special month called Ramadan and Muslims are fasted in this month and they are more religious in this month. And statistical information proves that in this month crime is lese than other months.

Here, I'll have to disagree with you, unless you can provide substantial proof of your "statistical information" statement. I used Google and entered "crime during ramadan" and got a good website that disagrees with you. For instance, http://www.indonesiamatters.com/762/ramadan-crime/the first sentence states, "Crime and prostitution are said to increase during the month of Ramadan." And this is in Indonesia, a muslim nation.

And there is another point: many people claim that they are religious but they are not. For example they claim that they are Christian but they hardly ever go to the church. Or some people claim that they are Muslims but they hardly ever pray. So we should consider these facts in our statistical studies.

Yes, we should consider those facts. But how do you determine who is telling the truth and who is lying? Do we spend a lifetime following each and every one in and out of their place of worship? And how do we know that they are not lying even when in their place of worship? If you have any ideas of how to determine this, I'd like to hear about them.

And also you said: "Mormonism implies that American Indians are descendants of Israelites, something that DNA has proven to be wrong. And the Christian bible, in Genesis, says that if goats copulate while looking at streaked rods. The result is streaked, speckled, and spotted baby goats. That's obviously not true."
Have you ever asked these questions from a Mormon or a Christian? And if you have asked them what was their responses. But if you have not asked them, we can make a new topic in this forum or other forums and ask these questions.

These are easy. I went to Google and entered, "mormonism american indians" and received plenty of links to websites by ex-Mormons, newspapers, and religious organizations, all discussing the problem modern Mormons are facing with the discovery that DNA of American Indians show they are descendants of Asians, NOT Israelites. Further, the info about streaked and spotted baby goats is contained in the Old Testament, book of Genesis. Anyone even slightly knowledgeable of how animals are bred to produce certain results will know that the entire statement is false. It is obviously the ideas of bronze-age men in the middle east who did not know any better.

Also you said: "is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent …."I need more time to think about it.

Epicurus' four questions are pretty easy to consider and answer.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
If God is merciful and loving and willing to prevent evil, then why do things like the storm in Burma and the earthquake in China happen? If God is indeed willing, then he obviously does not have the power to stop these things.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
But if God actually does have such power, but does not stop such horror as the above, then he obviously is malevolent. A human who had such power but who did nothing, would be considered evil.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
So, if God is both powerful enough and willing to stop evil, then why does it happen?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
And if he is NOT able to stop it, nor willing to try, then he is no different than any other human, except a good human being would be willing, just not all-powerful so not able to stop it..

Also you said: Does each God have the ability to perform a miraculous cure. This would have to be substantiated by verifiable proof. The easiest proof would be the miraculous restoration of a missing limb on an amputee.
I don’t understand your mean.
OK, I'll try to explain, and use Christianity as an example, as that is how I was raised. I've heard ministers claim that "they prayed and a person was cured of cancer (or heart problems, or blindness, etc) but they have no irrefutable proof that the sickness actually existed and that medical science has agreed that a miraculous cure happened. But there is one certain proof of a miracle cure done by an all-powerful God.... to regrow the missing limb (arm or leg or hand) of an amputee. If that happened, the news media all over the world would cover the story, along with photographs. Throughout history, that has never happened even once. Why not? Is it possible that the claimed God is not truly all-powerful? Or perhaps is only a myth?

Believers' lives are better? Let's look at some statistics.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T27kB4BjbEg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=my73tXDbJTI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdVucvo-kDU

_________________
"My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved for him."- Song of Solomon 5:4